Resources for PR Teachers

General Links

« Announcing the LEF Symposium on Legal Education’s Response to the Economic Realities Facing the Profession | Main | Lawyer for accused police stays the course, draws flak »

January 20, 2012

Comments

Doug Richmond

Let's assume I am representing John Steele in his estate planning. Let's also assume that John Steele injures someone in an auto accident. I guess Prof. Bussel would say that I could sue John Steele on behalf of the accident victim even as I am drafting his will. Heck, I could serve him with process in the personal injury case when he and his wife come to my office to sign the will. That's nuts.

Bill Freivogel

I suppose one could argue Richmond had to learn all about Steele's assets to do the estate plan properly. So Richmond would know where to collect on any judgment. Under Bussel's "1.9" analysis (in lieu of 1.7), wouldn't the matters be substantially related?

John Steele

I find the thesis of the article fruitful as a thought exercise.

In my view, similiar to what Bill is suggesting, when you represent a natural person (what we used to call a "human being" before we went to law school), it's often the case that all matters for the person are substantially related to all other matters for the person. That is, estate planning is tied to marriage status is tied to tax issues is tied to efforts of creditors (including plaintiffs) to collect on assets, etc. Typically it's only with organizations that you can safely conclude that one matter for the entity is completely unrelated to another matter against the entity.

And just to avoid any confusion, I'm a supporter of the US version of the rule, setting as a default rule that a lawyer may not be adverse to a current client on any matter at all.

Rick Underwood

For "thiry years"? What is he talking about? Ahistorical? Really?

Rick Underwood

Furthermore, this client says "You Are So Fired!"

What am I missing?

Doug Richmond

Rick is right that the governor on all this is the client, who is likely to say "you're fired." I'm not sure the Rule 1.9 substantially related analysis saves Prof. Bussel on my hypo.

Rick Underwood


You can't rob Peter to Pay Paul, unless Peter gives informed consent. Sometimes not even then. This is all in the Comments to the terse Elvis Code, I think. Having said that, I am not running for the Republican nomination for President (it does not appear that any "natural person" is), and I will not accept it if it is offered. Democratic neither.

Milan Markovic

I'm skeptical that abolishing MR 1.7(a) will really produce the kind of change that Prof. Bussel is seeking. First, under the current rule, a client can consent to a directly adverse representation. For Bussel's proposal to be effective, one must posit that there are a significant number of clients who will refuse to consent to a directly adverse representation but would not fire an attorney for taking the directly adverse representation against the client's wishes. Second, under MR 1.7(a)(2), an attorney would be obligated to consider whether either of the representations would be materially limited by duties to the opposing client.


Rick Underwood

Why is this Prof. Bussel at a better school than mine, getting paid more? Any Offers? I am 63 with a heart condition, but look at Monroe. He says I'm a kid, and he's about 97, or something like that, so I may still be worth big bucks. Bidding stars now ....... I am willing to teach Theatre Law too.

Rick Underwood


I just did a quick read through of the full article. I will look more at it next week.

Despite the provocative pitch, the author suggests (note 5) that nothing he is advancing calls for doing away with the requirement of informed consent. My question is, what does informed consent mean if the client can say - "You are fired." Can the lawyer hold up a new rule of ethics opinion from a professor and say "You can't fire me"? Would you go to such a lawyer?

The author also points out that some other professions do not have this rule. He uses a psychotherapist example and a Rabbi example. Seems like argument by false analogy. Read this part and see if you buy his arguments. Lawyers are not "idiosyncratic" if what they are doing for or against clients are different in nature from the other professions are doing.

I also found rather amusing some of his historical references. For example, check out Alabama's "oldest client" rule, which he says is derived from the old "Confederate Code." Do you that that rule is superior to Rule 1.7 as it is currently written? Is the Professor really making a serious point.

I do find the article interesting, and since it runs counter to everything I thought I knew, I had better read and re-read it.

In any event, the bidding is still open. Seriously. Or maybe not.

Rick Underwood


Sorry. I meant to say what does informed consent mean if the client can't say "You are fired." I am a very poor typist.

John David Galt

It seems to me that the problem of institutional clients monopolizing the good attorneys should be dealt with more directly: make a rule that forbids such "ongoing relationships" (probably by declaring them a breach of the attorney's duty to serve the public interest) unless the attorney is a direct, permanent employee of the client and forswears all other employment while there. That way a client who approaches a law firm can rely on it and its members being independent, because if they were not, they would not be in business as a firm separate from the client.

Rick Underwood


You are viewing this as a problem of corporations giving retainers to firms to conflict them out. If that is abusive perhaps it can be dealt with. I have noted that problem before. If that is all the author is concerned with, ok. But the sweeping, grandiose balloon sent up by the author in his provocative abstract, and his attack on the Model Rule, seems to go much further, does it not? Again, I have not had enough time to digest the entire article, but I will. I did not get too far into it without noting some problems.

John Steele

Bussel's article would make a nice justification for setting the default rule as it is in 1.7 (no adversity to current clients, even on unrelated matters) but then permitting sophisticated clients and firms to contract around that default rule as they see fit. Imho, the article doesn't make a case for abandoning 1.7. It doesn't, for example, consider what the client's legitimate expectation of loyalty might be and why we might honor that expectation.

Even though I disagree with the thesis, I did appreciate the article's recounting of some of the history and its comparison to other legal professions and to other professions in general.

Rick Underwood

Good summary John. But I am still going to read and reread it.

By the way, hope you are all onto Puppet's Court. What a hoot. This is a Northern Ohio (Cleveland) corruption trial. The Federal Judge won't let the local media cameras in, so they are doing daily record acted out by puppets. They are taking it to the Man. My kind of stuff. Not for your children tough. I guess it's ok for Steele. I worry sometimes though.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment