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February 06, 2012

Comments

John Steele

Cassandra, thanks for all those insights into the financial side of the current crisis. It won't be easy to get students to move away from over-reliance on the US News rankings. As I've counseled pre-law students about their decisions to apply/enroll, in the down economy they seem to cling to the rankings more tightly than ever. And it's not clear to me how schools will have an incentive to break the US News dominance. A lot of the rhetoric I've heard from schools over the years is more of a longing to return to the quiet, guild days when schools said very little and did not invite a hard look at their economics. Perhaps the down cycle will change that. But the people who matter most within schools are not particularly market-oriented or consumer-oriented, in my experience. They are very prestige-oriented.

Ben Cooper

Like John, I found all of the financial data very interesting. Thank you. There are a lot of problems with the US News rankings, but the one that bothers me the most is your third point. It is absolutely perverse that Schools benefit from charging higher tuition. The flip side for schools like mine -- the University of Mississippi which offers in-state tuition for $11,309 and permits out-of-state residents to get in-state tuition after their first year -- is that we are effectively penalized for having low tuition. This in an era when students care more than ever about what law school costs because of the economy.

Ray Campbell

Part of the problem is the lack of transparency in what US law schools actually cost. The sticker price of published tuition does not translate to the actual cost paid by the average student. So long as schools can buy LSAT scores and GPAs with discounted tuition, offering a low tuition to all comers really translates to offering a low tuition to those who weren't sluiced off by higher ranked schools with scholarships based on LSATs or grades. This makes it harder for schools to compete effectively on price.

Another part of the problem is regulation that locks all accredited schools into more or less the same business model. If you look at businesses that successfully compete on price (e.g., Wal-mart, Southwest, Geico) they generally depart from the legacy business models. Accreditation standards that would have required personal sales assistants, long haul cross country routes or local agents would not have allowed these companies to drive down costs and prices.

Douglas G Robertson

Brava, Cassandra. May I suggest that the student indebtedness problem is prevalent in other disciplines also, notably the medical professions. One of the effects of the medical cost of education is the problem of inadequate numbers of medical personnel in small town USA and the overabundance of orthopedic surgeons in areas like Houston, Texas. I think I detect similarities in the field of Economics where students flocked to the sometimes obscene incomes of mutual fund management only to find that field so crowded that success seems to have required the privatization of profit and the the public assumption of risk(loss)..Doug Robertson

bored3L

Perhaps instead of completely scrapping the USNWR rankings, pressure could be brought to bear on the "magazine" (which is really a rankings company) to get rid of categories that drive costs upward and replace them with categories that reward schools for good job placement and low tuition and debt loads. Prospective students will still be able to obsess over a list, USNWR will keep a profitable branch, and schools will be freed of the incentive to burn money to increase per student expenditure, library size, and faculty reputation score.

David Hricik

Thank you - this was great. I had not heard of the cap on repayments, which is just nuts. The impact would appear to be increased borrowing and less downward pressure on tuition -- not exactly what you would want.
Thank you.

CBR

Bored3L--I think that would be a great idea, and I think that this is what the National Jurist was trying to do with its list of "best value" law schools. (http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/best-value-law-schools-2011-dominated-public-schools). But of course, this ties in with other issues--the biggest problem with the National Jurist rankings was that they were based on incomplete data--e.g., salary estimates based on a tiny percentage of the graduating class. Brian Tamanaha has a nice analysis of data problems with the salary averages here: http://balkin.blogspot.com/2011/10/depth-and-breadth-of-misleading.html.

I suspect that USNews would love to add a "return on investment" category that compares actual tuition paid and average graduate salaries--and I agree with you that it would benefit the company itself. I suspect it might even be financially worthwhile for USNews to directly survey grads in order to come up with a better data set. And while I'm dreaming, I'd love to see that data extended out by 15 or 20 years--entry level salary data is important, but I think that career salary data over time is even more important. Actually--I do wonder what it would cost for a survey research firm to do this kind of data collection. Small sample sizes wouldn't be as problematic if they were randomly distributed--I suspect it could be done, and I wonder if it could even be crowdfunded? If someone wanted to start a Kickstarter or other crowdfunding project to get funding, I would donate to it.

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